IRC logs of #shogun for Monday, 2011-06-06

--- Log opened Mon Jun 06 00:00:00 2011
CIA-18shogun: Soeren Sonnenburg master * r8b50634 / (6 files in 3 dirs):01:42
CIA-18shogun: put shogun into org.shogun java package, fix configure / make distclean01:42
CIA-18shogun: targets and adjust java examples - http://bit.ly/j0VQ3H01:42
CIA-18shogun: Soeren Sonnenburg master * r37508ab / (src/Makefile.template src/configure): add some classpath magic - http://bit.ly/kOd6ne02:14
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blackburnehh.. some issue with mds09:58
blackburnsonney2k: around?10:20
@sonney2kblackburn, yes10:24
blackburnsonney2k: could you please add two line patch for ClassicMDS.cpp? I forgot to #ifdef HAVE_LAPACK it :(10:24
@sonney2kCIA-18, why didn't you say anything?10:24
@sonney2kalready done minutes ago10:25
blackburnah10:25
blackburnhehe10:25
blackburnyou have seen it in a mailing list?10:25
blackburnthank you10:25
@sonney2kno idea why sploving didn't fix this himself10:25
@sonney2kyes10:25
blackburnsonney2k: mds could be applied only to distance with no features, is it ok to add it?10:27
blackburnapply_to_distance or so10:27
@sonney2kas you want10:27
blackburnok10:27
blackburnit makes possible to get features from distance10:28
@sonney2khttp://www.h-online.com/news/item/Report-GitHub-more-popular-than-SourceForge-and-Google-Code-1254752.html10:34
blackburnno surprise :)10:35
blackburngithub rocks10:35
@sonney2kI am surprised that ruby is the most popular language on github10:36
@sonney2kI am not so surprised that C++ is still most popular overall10:36
@sonney2khttps://days2011.scala-lang.org/sites/days2011/files/ws3-1-Hundt.pdf10:38
blackburnah nevermind there are many ruby frameworks, ruby utilties and so on10:38
@sonney2ksays that C++ is still quite a bit faster ...10:38
blackburnbut I haven't seen any really serious thing10:38
@sonney2kbut hey so is assembly language if you know what you do10:38
blackburnjava is f-g slow! heheh10:39
blackburnwill be here 13.00 utc11:07
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blackburncwidmer: how are you? ;)14:14
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shogunheheeh14:25
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blackburndamn14:25
@sonney2kblackburn, evil you14:25
blackburnI need to sleep some hehehe14:26
cwidmerhi all14:33
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@sonney2khttp://timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=3714:55
@sonney2k13:30 UTC == 15:30 Germany14:55
@sonney2kIt is 13:30 UTC isn't it?15:31
@sonney2kSo blackburn, cwidmer, f-x, mikiobraun, VojtechFranc all here and alive?15:31
cwidmerseems so ^^15:31
cwidmeryep15:31
f-xalive15:31
mikiobraunye15:32
@sonney2kOK then lets start15:32
@sonney2kWelcome everyone to this 2nd meeting15:32
VojtechFranchi all15:32
@sonney2kGSoC is now running just a few weeks and I'd like to know how it is going?15:32
blackburnhere15:33
@sonney2kIs every student working full time now (I know blackburn still has exams going on so apart from him)?15:33
@sonney2kVojtechFranc, btw do you know where Alesis is?15:34
f-xyes, my college just ended and now i'm working full time15:34
@sonney2kmikiobraun, any idea about sploving?15:34
@sonney2kaka Baozeng.15:34
VojtechFrancAlesis Novik finish his exams the last week and started to work full time.15:34
mikiobraunno, no idea15:34
blackburni'm working don'tknowhowmuch time :D15:34
@sonney2kNo offense - just try to get the job done :)15:35
@sonney2kI just wanted to say a few things when you work with git:15:35
@sonney2kplease use git pull --rebase when you merge from master15:36
@sonney2kotherwise if you use git merge - git will assume your tree is the current master and add all the patches of the true master on top of it15:36
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heiko1hi15:36
@sonney2kwe had this situation a few times so please just keep this in mind15:37
heiko1sorry for the delay, traffic15:37
@sonney2khi heiko15:37
@bettybooback?!15:37
VojtechFrancsonney2k, would you recommend us some short tutorial for git? I started to read the main documentation but it takes too much time..15:37
heiko1the github doc is nice15:37
heiko1at least for this stuff we're doing here15:38
@sonney2kwe did just start - question was whether everyone is now working full time and that everyone should use git pull --rebase instead of git pull15:38
@sonney2kVojtechFranc, there were a few posts on the shogun mailing list15:38
cwidmerhere a quite nice overview to get started with git: http://gitimmersion.com/15:38
@sonney2kthese were pretty helpful to me15:38
@sonney2kbesides git I'd like to remind that every student is not doing totally isolated work - if minor glitches e.g. compile failures happen please try to fix them (or use git blame to figure out who did it and actively resolve the issue with him).15:39
@sonney2kor work on sth else shogun related and ask15:39
@sonney2kjust don't idle15:39
@sonney2kApart from that I wanted to ask how we could improve in student<->mentor<->admin communication?15:40
@sonney2kor is everyone fine with the current setup?15:40
heiko1I am fine.15:41
f-xokay with me at the moment.15:41
heiko1Well we could have a phone talk as planned15:41
mikiobraunworks for me15:41
cwidmerworks for me as well15:41
@sonney2kAnd before I forget please don't forget your weekly summary email - it can be really really short (2-3 sentences) but just let us know that you are still working.15:42
cwidmerre git: here is a blog post that talks about the situation that sören metioned - http://gitready.com/advanced/2009/02/11/pull-with-rebase.html15:42
@sonney2kf-x, and everyone else - if you feel that something is not going well say so as early as possible. This project should be fun and not cause frustration.15:43
@sonney2kheiko1, we will15:43
f-xyes, yes.. sure15:43
@sonney2kalright then mid-term eval is coming up in about 1 month15:43
heiko1At least for me its ok at the moment, wokring full-fime, having fun, knowing what to do15:44
@sonney2kso I think mentors need to define the requirements for successful midterm progress15:44
heiko1yes, this would be nice15:44
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@sonney2ke.g. sploving (who is doing the language interfaces could have finished java completely including translating examples)15:45
mikiobraunok15:46
@sonney2kso just think about it - discuss with your student/potential co-mentor and then we will use that15:46
@sonney2kThis shouldn't be too hard so lets just have this ready end of this week and please CC me in that email such that I know you have done so.15:47
@sonney2kAny questions concerns?15:47
heiko1no15:47
@sonney2kAnyone else?15:47
f-xsonney2k: will that mail for me be from you or John?15:48
cwidmersounds good15:48
VojtechFrancme not15:48
f-xi mean, he has to be informed about it15:48
@sonney2kf-x, since John is the only mentor that is not here I will contact him15:48
f-xok, thanks15:48
f-xno further questions from me15:49
@sonney2kSo then I think we should just schedule the next meeting15:49
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@sonney2kHow about  July 4th 13:00 UTC?15:49
heiko1ok for me15:49
VojtechFrancok for me15:49
blackburnerr connection problem15:49
f-xi can't think of any problems with that date15:50
cwidmerI'll be travelling until July 6th, maybe a few days later?15:50
f-x^ for me15:50
cwidmer7th?15:50
@sonney2kwould also be fine with me...15:50
blackburnwhat are the date you talking about?15:51
mikiobraunok with me15:51
heiko1also for me15:51
f-xme too15:51
@sonney2kblackburn, next meeting July 7th 13:00 UTC15:51
@sonney2kok then15:51
blackburnah I see, it should be ok for me15:51
@sonney2kthen thanks everyone for attending the meeting and happy coding / gsoccing15:51
heiko1thanks, see you!15:52
cwidmerthanks sören15:52
@sonney2kmeeting over ...15:52
f-xsee you guys15:52
cwidmerhappy hacking to you all15:52
cwidmersee you15:52
VojtechFrancthanks, and cheers15:52
mikiobraunok, bye15:52
@sonney2kf-x, please don't forget to write the weekly email :D15:52
@bettybooha ha15:52
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@sonney2kand it never hurts to idle in dthis channel - someone is usually here to help15:52
f-xsonney2k: i won't! :)15:53
@sonney2kf-x, thanks!15:53
f-xsonney2k: and do i need to mail for this week?15:53
f-xbecause i mailed one 3-4 days back15:53
@sonney2kheiko1, for your mid-term eval I think when you manage to get working what you planned this week plus maybe that from the python_modular side is totally sufficient to me15:54
heiko1ok alright15:54
heiko1think this should be doable15:54
heiko1I think the part with the parameter combinations was the hardest part already15:55
heiko1now it comes to putting things together15:55
heiko1ne subset stuff for the remaining classes is a bigger thing, but besides from that, some basic model selection should work till mid-term15:55
heiko1sorry, 5min afk15:56
blackburnsee you15:56
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@sonney2kf-x, end of this week is totally sufficient15:57
f-xsonney2k: okay. i'll mail for next week..15:57
@sonney2kf-x, about the buffering fixed size vs. fixed number of examples15:59
f-xyes, sonney2k15:59
f-xjohn says it's more convenient to use fixed examples15:59
@sonney2kWhat would you like to implement?15:59
@sonney2kHe has more experience in this16:00
f-xfixed examples seems easier16:00
@sonney2kat least he implemented it in vw and it works :D16:00
f-xvery well too :)16:00
f-xfixed buffer size is also possible, but i at least need a decent approximation for the initial ring size in terms of examples16:00
@sonney2kso I would always do the proving thing first16:01
@sonney2kit could be problematic if you have some examples that are huge and you just didn't expect that16:01
f-xsorry, didn't get it exactly16:02
@sonney2kif you have a buffer for say 4 examples and suddenly they all are 1G or so16:02
@sonney2kyou might run out of memory16:02
@sonney2kthis wouldn't happen if you have a fixed buffer16:02
@sonney2k(this has other problems though - if examples are too big you cannot load them)16:03
f-xeven with a fixed buffer, it may be inefficient unless we allow it to expand dynamically16:03
f-xhow does the user know what size of the buffer to set?16:03
heiko1back16:04
@sonney2kf-x, yes that is the problem of using a fixed buffer.16:05
f-xbut your concern is valid, sonney2k.. vw doubles the buffer size if insufficient16:06
f-xand if you try to store 4 complete examples, 1G each in the buffer, memory problems guaranteed16:06
f-xi need to see how the vw code handles that16:06
f-xor consult John16:06
@sonney2kf-x, anyway I would say you implement the example based setting - we could set a maximum buffer size later on but for now it is the way to start16:06
f-xsonney2k: okay. we could always change it later16:07
f-xit wouldn't change many parts of the code, only a couple of functions16:07
f-xsonney2k: one more question16:08
f-xdo you think it is better if the framework is first done completely, and then i begin with the vw integration16:08
@sonney2kf-x, I am thinking about a midterm goal and maybe it would be a good idea to at least have for simple / sparse features of any type the streaming features ready with some example showing how it works16:08
f-xor should i do it side by side16:08
@sonney2kor integrate that with e.g. SGD or so and not do all features16:09
f-xsonney2k: gtg, back in 10 minutes16:09
f-xsorry16:09
@sonney2kok cu16:09
@sonney2kfinally!16:09
@sonney2kthunderstorm16:09
@sonney2k30 C here...16:09
heiko1hehe :)16:09
heiko1same here16:09
heiko1but no storm yet16:10
@sonney2kdrop temperature drop!16:10
heiko1but will come in ~2 hrs :)16:10
@sonney2kheiko1, good luck :)16:10
heiko1just survived a thunderstorm in a tent in france some days ago :)16:10
@sonney2kI did yesterday swimming in a lake16:11
heiko1nice :)16:11
heiko1which one?16:11
@sonney2kas long as one can see the shore it is all good I suppose16:11
@sonney2kdon't know the name close to Fürstenwalde16:12
heiko1ok, don't know16:12
@sonney2khttp://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=f%C3%BCrstenwalde&aq=&sll=51.151786,10.415039&sspn=16.314769,46.538086&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=F%C3%BCrstenwalde,+Oder-Spree,+Brandenburg&ll=52.399486,14.03821&spn=0.030951,0.090895&t=h&z=1416:12
@sonney2ktrebuser see16:12
heiko1hehe hail google maps .)16:14
@sonney2kyeah they have some nice programs16:15
heiko1yes, indeed16:15
heiko1also the gsoc programe is really cool16:15
@sonney2kheiko1, heh :)16:16
* sonney2k agrees16:16
heiko1in a few years, they'll own the world, I am sure.16:17
@sonney2kheiko1, anyway I think you made good progress. There will be lots of seemingly minor side issues I suspect in the end16:17
heiko1thanks :)16:17
heiko1yes, I think so16:17
heiko1many small things16:17
@sonney2klike the SVM C thing16:17
heiko1yes16:18
@sonney2kI didn't have time to deal with that yet btw16:18
heiko1In the example, I now just changed the C1 parameter16:18
heiko1I think this can be done some time later16:18
@sonney2kbut when you make progress like this we will see the many problems soon16:19
heiko1still dont know which I prefer, hacking around in the CSVM class or making it possible to have multiple paramters under one name16:19
f-xsonney2k: back16:21
f-xi'm starting to think it is better if i start with some learning algorithm simultaneously16:21
f-xwill probably help to iron out some problems with the streaming features backend16:21
f-xas you say, SGD is a good option16:21
@sonney2kheiko1, I mean it is confusing to have 2 C's but wanting to specify only one of the C's16:22
heiko1what do you mean?16:23
@sonney2kheiko1, I would say shogun has no notion of SVM-C16:23
@sonney2kit has two C's16:23
heiko1ah ok16:23
@sonney2kand that creates the confusion16:23
@sonney2kf-x, yes good idea16:24
@sonney2kf-x, I am concerned that the we cannot as originally planned derive e.g. SimpleFeatures from StreamingFeatures or so16:24
f-xsonney2k: hmm.. i thought that might be a problem16:25
f-xor do you want me to change the code in some way that it is possible it derive it?16:25
@sonney2kf-x, the problem is templates16:26
@sonney2kone cannot derive from a templated class and still be general16:26
@sonney2kI mean type T has to be defined then16:27
f-xoh.. i get it16:27
f-xso StreamingFeatures has to be an independent templated class?16:27
@sonney2kI don't know yet16:28
f-xright now the line reader has only been implemented for float64_t16:28
@sonney2kf-x, it would be great if it was compatible to CDotFeatures http://www.shogun-toolbox.org/doc/classshogun_1_1CDotFeatures.html16:29
@sonney2kbecause that is what the linear SVMs currently use16:29
@sonney2kf-x, if we just do the streamingfeatures separately it is easy16:29
@sonney2kthen we could template and have the online algorithm use it16:30
@sonney2kit would be great to interact with the batch based features that we have now though.16:31
@sonney2kI don't know if this is easily possible16:31
@sonney2khmmhh16:31
@sonney2kmaybe one could derive from CDotFeatures - a CStreamingDotFeatures class that takes a StreamingFeatures object16:32
@sonney2kand same for the Simple/Sparse/StringFeatures16:32
f-xyes, seems possible16:32
@sonney2kor alternatively hack this direclty into these classes16:33
f-xi haven't gone through all the code for DotFeatures yet, but i'm thinking many functions will have to be redefined16:33
f-xin the derived class16:33
@sonney2kbasically only what we have in SimpleFeatures16:33
@sonney2ksame code actually - but it is weird16:34
@sonney2kI think we should start separately16:35
f-xstart separately?16:35
f-xlike we have done so far?16:35
@sonney2kthen when the code manifests - after midterm eval figure out what we could generalize16:35
@sonney2kyes16:35
@sonney2kf-x, so I think you should define an OnlineMachine - in spirit of CLinearMachine for example16:36
@sonney2kand then derive SGD or liblinear from that16:37
f-xsonney2k: yes.. and should i start work on that now?16:37
@sonney2kthat means code duplication though16:37
@sonney2kf-x, well first finish the buffer stuff and add some small example code that illustrates how to use the streaming features16:37
@sonney2kwe can add a toy data set for that too16:38
f-xokay, but it will only work for simple input formats now16:38
@sonney2kI think you also need to do some benchmarks how fast the stuff is16:38
@sonney2kyes I know16:38
@sonney2kyou need to make it more general I am afraid such that we can have a drop in replacement with a binary format later16:39
f-xit won't be much of a problem, just defining separate line reading functions16:40
@sonney2kI mean you currently parse a line -> example. Now same thing for other stuff16:40
@sonney2kyes16:40
@sonney2kit shouldn't be difficult16:40
f-xit's just that i need to know the exact definitions of the input formats16:40
@sonney2kbtw we need a line parser for that too16:41
@sonney2kgetline :D16:41
f-xsonney2k: i can do that, but was thinking of dropping getline altogether16:42
f-xbut i think for now getline is okay16:42
f-xi'll submit it16:42
f-x:)16:42
@sonney2kf-x, yes for your code you need to drop it - but we need that in the other ascii based features too16:43
@sonney2kso it is definitely not wasted time16:43
f-xsonney2k: sure.. i'll make one using fread16:43
@sonney2kf-x, or fgets - just check if that is fast16:43
@sonney2k(enough)16:43
f-xokay16:44
f-xso getline is first priority now16:44
@sonney2kf-x, so assume that this is done16:44
f-xhmm16:44
@sonney2kthe current CSGD code relies on CDotFeatures as inputs16:44
@sonney2ksame for liblinear16:45
f-xso i'm afraid the StreamingDotFeatures will have to be done right now16:45
@sonney2kThe problem is that these algorithms are working in batch mode currenlty16:46
@sonney2ki.e. they do multiple passes over the data16:46
f-xyeah16:46
@sonney2kone can set them to epochs=1 though16:46
f-xso you want a flag to specify online/offline mode?16:47
@sonney2kand also IIRC they all currenlty require that the number of examples is known beforehand16:47
f-xi mean, the online one shouldn't be a separate file?16:47
@sonney2kif we don't want too much code duplication we need to have such a flag16:47
heiko1sonney2k, is it possible to define abstract base classes in shogun? because class_list.cpp complains, if I do.16:48
@sonney2kf-x, I guess you will have to look at CDotFeatures and then try to derive things16:49
@sonney2kwhen problems occur ask16:50
@sonney2kbut first getline and example etc16:50
f-xhmm.. correct. only then can i begin with an online algorithm16:50
@sonney2kyes16:50
@sonney2kheiko1, then they shouldn't appear in class_list*16:50
heiko1how do i do that? not extend CSGObject?16:51
@sonney2kheiko1, use https://gist.github.com/ to show me te code16:51
f-xso i'll get to the getline thing first16:51
f-xsee you guys later, sonney2k and heiko116:51
heiko1bye :)16:51
@sonney2kf-x, yeah cu!16:51
@sonney2kand be around more often :)16:52
heiko1https://gist.github.com/101039016:53
heiko1something like this16:53
@sonney2kbut don't use SGVector&16:54
@sonney2kwe want values copied16:55
@sonney2kit should work though16:55
@sonney2k(not appear in class_list*)16:55
heiko1mmh ...16:55
heiko1it does, ill do a make clean16:55
@sonney2kor git clean -dfx16:56
@sonney2k(beware that this ereases all files not in git)16:56
heiko1thanks for the warning :)16:57
@bettyboo;)16:57
heiko1what makes a class appear in class_list*?16:57
@sonney2kit starts with a C prefix and has no pure virtual functions16:58
@sonney2klook at my class_list.cpp.py script for the magic :)16:58
heiko1ok :)16:59
heiko1ok works now, thanks17:02
* heiko1 will get a coffee17:03
@sonney2kgtg17:07
@sonney2kl8r17:07
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@sonney2kChuck Norris has only one OSI level - Physical20:59
@sonney2kgreat stuff20:59
CIA-18shogun: Soeren Sonnenburg master * r54230de / src/python_modular/swig_typemaps.i : Support all datatypes from SGDataType in new python_modular typemaps. - http://bit.ly/lR5HT522:16
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alesis-novikHello. Sorry I missed the meeting, but I had prior arrangements from before the meeting time was announced.23:43
alesis-novikI'll go over the logs23:43
--- Log closed Tue Jun 07 00:00:04 2011

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