| --- Log opened Sun Apr 15 00:00:19 2012 | ||
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| n4nd0 | good morning! | 10:29 |
|---|---|---|
| blackburn | hey | 10:35 |
| blackburn | easter today here finally :D | 10:35 |
| n4nd0 | good :) | 10:37 |
| n4nd0 | is it holidays there too? | 10:38 |
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| blackburn | n4nd0: yes kind of | 10:41 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: bye bye to m_q then? | 10:48 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: yeah I think so | 10:48 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: should we wait and ask sonney2k? | 10:49 |
| blackburn | I don't think so | 10:49 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: can you imagine it is useful? | 10:49 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: well it is just an heuristic to give more importance to the class of the points that are closer | 10:50 |
| n4nd0 | I think it actually makes sense | 10:50 |
| blackburn | it would give ~ result as reducing k | 10:51 |
| n4nd0 | but to tell the truth I don't know if it makes a real difference in practice | 10:51 |
| n4nd0 | yes exactly | 10:51 |
| blackburn | no need for that | 10:51 |
| n4nd0 | all right | 10:51 |
| n4nd0 | will drop it then ;) | 10:51 |
| blackburn | please :) | 10:51 |
| blackburn | hahahahah putin came with moscow's mayor instead of wife lol | 10:54 |
| blackburn | http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OGqCvTHrXmo | 10:54 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: check this shameful cults full of gold and opulence | 10:54 |
| n4nd0 | yeah, I am watching it | 10:55 |
| n4nd0 | I don't understand that much though :P | 10:55 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: just imagine how much money they spent on this golden shit | 10:56 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: and there is funny story that putin dumped his wife - and we were laughing he bring mayor instead of his wife :D | 10:57 |
| blackburn | it is ok to be gay lol | 10:58 |
| n4nd0 | haha | 10:58 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: btw legislatives here are going to introduce law that punishes gays because of gay advocacy | 10:59 |
| blackburn | how wild is it for you? | 10:59 |
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| blackburn | n4nd0: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/containers.html#faq-34.1 we should adv it to soeren | 11:04 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: yeah, we should do that! | 11:04 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: btw do you like libs extraction? | 11:04 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: what is it? | 11:05 |
| blackburn | https://github.com/shogun-toolbox/shogun/pull/454 | 11:05 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: this one ^ | 11:05 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: aham, so to move code from another libraries to an specific directory? | 11:06 |
| blackburn | yes | 11:06 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: yes, I like it - I think the project is better ordered like that | 11:07 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: is there any con? | 11:07 |
| blackburn | I don't see any | 11:07 |
| n4nd0 | I agree then | 11:08 |
| n4nd0 | I should probably move the cover tree there | 11:10 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: to avoid some merge issues better stay it there | 11:12 |
| blackburn | and we will move it later | 11:12 |
| n4nd0 | ok | 11:12 |
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| n4nd0 | blackburn: I like the article about containers | 11:19 |
| blackburn | yeah this faq is nice | 11:20 |
| blackburn | there are other faqs covering whole C++ | 11:20 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: I'd actually like to see more C++ style in the project | 11:21 |
| blackburn | any other suggestions? | 11:22 |
| n4nd0 | I like the STL too | 11:24 |
| blackburn | algorithms? | 11:25 |
| n4nd0 | and as I think I told you once and pluskid also suggested, smart pointers could be a good idea | 11:25 |
| blackburn | smart pointers - yes, agree | 11:25 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: for algorithms and for the containers | 11:25 |
| blackburn | ohhh | 11:26 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: to use iterators | 11:26 |
| blackburn | I would like to see a good example of <algorithm> usage | 11:26 |
| n4nd0 | like how to use some of the functions there? | 11:27 |
| wiking | blackburn: :)))) | 11:27 |
| wiking | sonney2k: does not like STL afaik | 11:28 |
| wiking | i've told 2 months ago to have iterators on various types like sgvector or sgmatrix would be great to see | 11:28 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: yes I can't see because I do not think in the <algorithm> way :D | 11:28 |
| blackburn | wiking: we have iterators on dot features | 11:28 |
| n4nd0 | we should buy a present to sonney2k | 11:29 |
| n4nd0 | http://www.amazon.com/Effective-STL-Specific-Standard-Template/dp/0201749629 | 11:29 |
| wiking | ahahhahaha | 11:29 |
| blackburn | send one for me please too | 11:30 |
| n4nd0 | haha | 11:30 |
| wiking | lol man i've completely overseen this function set_combined_kernel_weight | 11:30 |
| blackburn | okay nevermind I downloaded a torrent lol | 11:30 |
| wiking | \o/ | 11:31 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: be careful man, logged chat :P | 11:31 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: recall the country I am from | 11:31 |
| blackburn | HEY THERE I AM DOWNLOADING TORRENTS | 11:31 |
| n4nd0 | in that book they recommend and talk a bit about for_each | 11:32 |
| wiking | hehehehe | 11:32 |
| wiking | <algorithm> is cool | 11:32 |
| wiking | but then again | 11:32 |
| wiking | it really depends | 11:32 |
| n4nd0 | I have never used myself it but it looks nice | 11:32 |
| wiking | sometimes the whole STL thing is a bit like: "shooting on a bird with a cannon" | 11:32 |
| wiking | so sometimes you are just better of with valarray | 11:35 |
| wiking | it's much faster than any other STL container tyoe | 11:35 |
| wiking | type | 11:35 |
| wiking | so for example in case of SGVector having a valarray would be good | 11:38 |
| n4nd0 | wih valarray so mena a normal T*? | 11:38 |
| n4nd0 | I'm sorry I didn't understand properly :S | 11:38 |
| n4nd0 | and what about to use the array class in C++11 for that? | 11:41 |
| wiking | mmm valarray by far the fastst | 11:41 |
| wiking | fastest | 11:41 |
| wiking | and simply have a vector like | 11:41 |
| wiking | valarray<float64_t> vec | 11:41 |
| wiking | and still you can have some funky operations on them | 11:42 |
| wiking | with the help of apply function | 11:42 |
| wiking | n4nd0: and the problem with array that its c++11 | 11:46 |
| wiking | so you'll have some problems with code portability | 11:46 |
| wiking | while valarray is standard C++ | 11:46 |
| n4nd0 | I had no idea about this valarray | 11:47 |
| n4nd0 | I think it is cool | 11:47 |
| wiking | anyhow valarray is just a good container when you have SIMD operations on your machine... so like any normal cpu nowadays | 11:47 |
| wiking | mmx, sse, sse2 | 11:47 |
| wiking | any gcc will be able to optimize your code for using SIMD | 11:48 |
| wiking | with valarray | 11:48 |
| wiking | but valarray is basically good for built-in types... like float, int etc | 11:50 |
| wiking | it's not a good container for objects or pointers for objects | 11:50 |
| wiking | basically it's not meant for that :)) | 11:50 |
| n4nd0 | I see | 11:50 |
| wiking | for that u use some standard STL container | 11:50 |
| wiking | maaaan amazing :) | 12:21 |
| wiking | done it :) | 12:22 |
| wiking | \o/ | 12:22 |
| wiking | blackburn: what ya say about the valarray? | 12:22 |
| blackburn | wiking: I heard it is something like bringing fortran speed to C++? | 12:22 |
| wiking | ahahahahha | 12:22 |
| wiking | you must have read stackoverflow | 12:23 |
| wiking | :> | 12:23 |
| blackburn | yeap :D | 12:23 |
| blackburn | wiking: I need to override protected method of base of base class in derived. how do you think it should be done? | 12:28 |
| wiking | so you want to override the function a in class c where c : b, b: a | 12:29 |
| wiking | ? | 12:29 |
| wiking | a sorry this was stupid | 12:29 |
| wiking | so you want to override the function x in class c where c : b, b: a and a.x ? | 12:30 |
| wiking | so that x is defined in a... | 12:30 |
| wiking | why would virtual not work? | 12:30 |
| blackburn | wiking: exactly | 12:30 |
| blackburn | wiking: it would work but it is not visible from c | 12:30 |
| wiking | ah ok | 12:30 |
| blackburn | I guess I need to declare it in b? | 12:31 |
| wiking | well in case of c a class is simply a struct no? | 12:31 |
| blackburn | wiking: damn that would be easy if it was public but I don't want to expose these methods :D | 12:32 |
| wiking | mmm wait a second | 12:33 |
| blackburn | however I need to redeclare it again in C | 12:33 |
| wiking | how do you want to access that method at all in c? | 12:33 |
| blackburn | wiking: isn't it possible? | 12:33 |
| wiking | well afaik no | 12:33 |
| wiking | i mean it's not going to create you function pointers or something | 12:33 |
| wiking | and simple c does not understand the syntax a.function () | 12:34 |
| wiking | unless there's a function pointer there in struct a | 12:34 |
| blackburn | wiking: but it will work in case of public virtual | 12:34 |
| wiking | mmm have u tried? | 12:34 |
| wiking | i mean i'll try it for you now :) | 12:35 |
| blackburn | wiking: why not? I guess I did not describe it right | 12:35 |
| blackburn | I need to redefine method of A in C | 12:35 |
| wiking | yeah i got that | 12:35 |
| wiking | i'm just curious how will it work at all in ansi c | 12:36 |
| blackburn | the only problem is visibility | 12:36 |
| wiking | while you are having classes | 12:36 |
| wiking | so for example my compiler dies on this :) | 12:37 |
| wiking | http://snipt.org/uhfL6#expand | 12:38 |
| wiking | if u compile it with gcc | 12:38 |
| wiking | as if you want to have c | 12:38 |
| blackburn | what's this? | 12:38 |
| wiking | well a very simple example trying to use a class in ansi c | 12:38 |
| wiking | that this way it won't work | 12:39 |
| wiking | so i'm wondering how do you want to call a class and it's method in ansi c | 12:39 |
| blackburn | why ansi c? | 12:39 |
| wiking | aah fuck | 12:39 |
| wiking | :DDD | 12:39 |
| wiking | blackburn: wiking: it would work but it is not visible from c | 12:39 |
| wiking | :D | 12:39 |
| blackburn | damn :D | 12:39 |
| blackburn | wiking: no the problem is | 12:39 |
| wiking | i've got it | 12:39 |
| wiking | what's the problem now | 12:39 |
| wiking | why wouldn't it inherit | 12:40 |
| blackburn | I have protected virtual method in A | 12:40 |
| wiking | yes i got that now | 12:40 |
| blackburn | will it be available from C? | 12:40 |
| wiking | i wonder why isn't it getting as well down to C | 12:40 |
| blackburn | hmm let me check again | 12:40 |
| wiking | class friend is not transitive i know | 12:40 |
| wiking | but inheritance of a fund... | 12:40 |
| wiking | function.. | 12:40 |
| wiking | works for me | 12:43 |
| wiking | blackburn http://snipt.org/uhfM8#expand | 12:44 |
| blackburn | hmm fine thanks | 12:44 |
| wiking | what was the problem? | 12:44 |
| blackburn | wiking: currently I have no idea if there was a problem :D | 12:45 |
| wiking | ah ok | 12:45 |
| wiking | anyhow this what you've told should work | 12:45 |
| wiking | even if it's not redefined in class B | 12:45 |
| blackburn | wiking: yes it seems so :) | 12:46 |
| blackburn | wiking: btw did you postponed latent stuff a little? | 12:48 |
| wiking | blackburn: no why? | 12:49 |
| blackburn | just curious :) | 12:49 |
| wiking | blackburn: working on it... | 12:49 |
| wiking | just had a chat with alex the other day | 12:49 |
| wiking | we are finally on the same page | 12:50 |
| wiking | as obviously from our emails we had a misunderstanding | 12:50 |
| blackburn | I see | 12:50 |
| wiking | now we 'realized' that yes actually we need the LatentFeatures | 12:50 |
| wiking | class | 12:50 |
| blackburn | hah | 12:50 |
| blackburn | wiking: btw where did you place your classes? | 12:50 |
| wiking | otherwise we couldn't optimize the latent part | 12:50 |
| wiking | blackburn: well now they are still there where i've committed them first | 12:51 |
| blackburn | I suggest latent both for latentfeatures and other latent stuff | 12:51 |
| blackburn | shogun/latent/ | 12:51 |
| blackburn | I mean | 12:51 |
| wiking | aha | 12:51 |
| wiking | so you want to move everything under shogun/latent | 12:51 |
| wiking | at one place? | 12:51 |
| wiking | even LatentLabel and LatentFeature ? | 12:51 |
| blackburn | wiking: why not? | 12:52 |
| wiking | i'm just asking | 12:52 |
| blackburn | I think it is a domain for that :) | 12:52 |
| wiking | it's a bit confusion | 12:52 |
| blackburn | do you think so? | 12:52 |
| wiking | i mean even to have the features and the labels | 12:52 |
| wiking | i got the point for having the machine separated | 12:53 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: what do you think about that ^? | 12:53 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: I have to go back in the conversation | 12:53 |
| blackburn | my opinion is that base stuff should be as is but domains are separated | 12:53 |
| wiking | although maybe it' should be something like | 12:53 |
| wiking | shogun/classifier/latent | 12:53 |
| wiking | just as in case of mkl | 12:53 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: do you think all the latent stuff should go shogun/latent? | 12:53 |
| wiking | or? | 12:53 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: I am correcting a Spanish easy for my gf and I lost part of the conversation | 12:54 |
| wiking | n4nd0: :DDD | 12:54 |
| blackburn | :D | 12:54 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: no need to dig into whole conversation :) | 12:54 |
| blackburn | wiking: can't it be multiclass?> | 12:54 |
| wiking | well it should be | 12:54 |
| blackburn | regression? | 12:55 |
| wiking | for me otherwise it's not much of a use | 12:55 |
| blackburn | or even structured output? :) | 12:55 |
| wiking | yep | 12:55 |
| wiking | yep | 12:55 |
| wiking | structured output | 12:55 |
| blackburn | if so I think it should go to shogun/latent | 12:55 |
| blackburn | because it won't be 'classifier' in standart mean | 12:55 |
| blackburn | however let us discuss it later with soeren | 12:56 |
| wiking | ok | 12:56 |
| wiking | let me know | 12:56 |
| wiking | i'll continue as i've started earlier | 12:56 |
| blackburn | yes it is not hard change so | 12:56 |
| blackburn | no need to worry :) | 12:56 |
| wiking | yeah just a git mv | 12:56 |
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| n4nd0 | blackburn: why LatentFeatures wouldn't be ok in shogun/features? | 13:07 |
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| blackburn | n4nd0: it would but it makes sense to store domain-specific things in separate folder (for me) | 13:08 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: yes, it actually makes sense too | 13:09 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: I guess that in this case, LatentFeatures, it is a matter of taste | 13:09 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: it probably makes sense both under latent/ and under shogun/features | 13:10 |
| pluskid | I moved MulticlassSVM.{h,cpp} to multiclass folder, but why I always get: *** No rule to make target `../../shogun/classifier/svm/MultiClassSVM.h', needed by `modshogun_wrap.cxx'. Stop. | 13:11 |
| pluskid | I can't find where the path is specified | 13:11 |
| blackburn | pluskid: find shogn | xargs grep svm/MultiClassSVM.h | 13:11 |
| blackburn | shogun* | 13:11 |
| blackburn | find shogun* | 13:11 |
| blackburn | :D | 13:11 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: deleting .o would solve that? | 13:12 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: yes and .cxx. but only in the case that MultiClassSVM is not referenced by some include | 13:12 |
| blackburn | pluskid: did you change include in multiclasslibsvm? | 13:13 |
| pluskid | I changed a lot | 13:13 |
| pluskid | btw, the refactoring is a huge project | 13:13 |
| blackburn | pluskid: did you 'make clean'? | 13:13 |
| pluskid | there are dozens of multiclass svm subclasses | 13:14 |
| pluskid | and even GUI staffs are related | 13:14 |
| pluskid | yes I did make clean | 13:14 |
| pluskid | I'll try again | 13:14 |
| blackburn | Scatter, LaRank, GMNP, LibSVM | 13:14 |
| blackburn | MKLMulticlass | 13:14 |
| blackburn | ah no | 13:14 |
| blackburn | shogun/classifier/svm/ScatterSVM.h:#include <shogun/classifier/svm/MultiClassSVM.h> | 13:14 |
| blackburn | shogun/classifier/svm/LibSVMMultiClass.h:#include <shogun/classifier/svm/MultiClassSVM.h> | 13:14 |
| blackburn | shogun/classifier/svm/MultiClassSVM.cpp:#include <shogun/classifier/svm/MultiClassSVM.h> | 13:14 |
| blackburn | shogun/classifier/svm/GMNPSVM.h:#include <shogun/classifier/svm/MultiClassSVM.h> | 13:14 |
| blackburn | shogun/classifier/svm/LaRank.h:#include <shogun/classifier/svm/MultiClassSVM.h> | 13:14 |
| blackburn | pluskid: ^ | 13:15 |
| pluskid | I see | 13:15 |
| pluskid | thanks | 13:15 |
| blackburn | interfaces/modular/Classifier_includes.i: #include <shogun/classifier/svm/MultiClassSVM.h> | 13:15 |
| blackburn | interfaces/modular/Classifier.i:%include <shogun/classifier/svm/MultiClassSVM.h> | 13:15 |
| blackburn | pluskid: so are you unhappy doing it ? :) | 13:16 |
| pluskid | blackburn, I'd rather not give up at this moment | 13:17 |
| pluskid | :p | 13:17 |
| blackburn | pluskid: it requires some careful work but it is really needed | 13:18 |
| pluskid | blackburn, yes, I see | 13:18 |
| pluskid | there are lots of duplicated/similar code in MulticlassSVM | 13:18 |
| pluskid | and the new multiclass facility | 13:19 |
| blackburn | pluskid: similar to multiclass machine? | 13:19 |
| blackburn | yes | 13:19 |
| blackburn | pluskid: actually you may remove it | 13:19 |
| pluskid | MulticlassSVM? | 13:19 |
| blackburn | no | 13:19 |
| pluskid | I don't think so, too :) | 13:20 |
| blackburn | pluskid: I mean duplicated stuff | 13:20 |
| pluskid | yes | 13:20 |
| blackburn | pluskid: just derive it from kernel multiclass machine | 13:20 |
| blackburn | and add there required methods | 13:20 |
| pluskid | yes, that's what I'm doing | 13:20 |
| pluskid | :) | 13:20 |
| blackburn | pluskid: did you catch the idea of multiclass stuff? | 13:20 |
| blackburn | i mean that generic thing | 13:20 |
| pluskid | I think yes | 13:20 |
| blackburn | while GMNP/LaRank/Scatter are all OvR | 13:21 |
| blackburn | it would be easy | 13:21 |
| pluskid | but the generic multiclass training procedure is much different from our multiclass-svms | 13:21 |
| pluskid | it seems | 13:21 |
| blackburn | it should be overrided with svms | 13:21 |
| pluskid | so GMNP/LaRank/Scatter all cannot support OvO? | 13:21 |
| blackburn | pluskid: no | 13:21 |
| blackburn | GMNP is modified Weston-Watkins formulation | 13:22 |
| blackburn | and LaRank is primal Crammer-Singer | 13:22 |
| blackburn | so no way to do OvO | 13:22 |
| n4nd0 | see you later guys | 13:23 |
| pluskid | didn't know those methods | 13:23 |
| blackburn | pluskid: for example in gmnpsvm all you need is to change set_svm part | 13:23 |
| pluskid | cu n4nd0 | 13:23 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: see you | 13:23 |
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| pluskid | yes | 13:23 |
| blackburn | I mean training will stay | 13:23 |
| blackburn | all you need is to set machines | 13:23 |
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| pluskid | currently, I'm using some regression test to assure the result before and after refactoring is the same | 13:24 |
| pluskid | ensure | 13:24 |
| blackburn | nice | 13:24 |
| blackburn | pluskid: the formulations are | 13:24 |
| blackburn | C-S: \sum_m ||w_m||^2 + C \sum_i \xi_i s.t. <w_yi,x_i>-<w_m,x_i>\geq 1 - \delta_yi,m + \xi_i | 13:25 |
| blackburn | W-W: \sum_m ||w_m||^2 + C!!! \sum_m !!! \sum_i \xi_i s.t. <w_yi,x_i>-<w_m,x_i>\geq 1 - \delta_yi,m + \xi_i | 13:25 |
| blackburn | m = 0, ... , K --- classes | 13:25 |
| blackburn | i = 1, ... , N --- train vectors | 13:25 |
| blackburn | the only difference is class slacks | 13:26 |
| pluskid | what is C-S and W-W denoting? | 13:27 |
| blackburn | Crammer-Singer | 13:28 |
| blackburn | Weston-Watkins | 13:28 |
| blackburn | http://www.cis.uab.edu/zhang/Spam-mining-papers/On.the.Algorithmic.Implementation.of.Multiclass.Kernel.based.Vector.machines.pdf | 13:28 |
| pluskid | ah, thanks for the reference | 13:28 |
| blackburn | http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.50.9594 | 13:29 |
| blackburn | pluskid: W-W is rather infeasible but GMNP does a magic trick for that | 13:29 |
| pluskid | magic? :D | 13:30 |
| blackburn | it maps the problem to single-class one using kesler's transformation | 13:30 |
| blackburn | yes kind of | 13:30 |
| pluskid | hmm, lots of magic for me :D | 13:32 |
| pluskid | I won't understand all those before reading the papers | 13:32 |
| blackburn | ok have to go | 13:36 |
| blackburn | pluskid: see you | 13:36 |
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| pluskid | cu | 13:37 |
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| flxb | If I use a kernel normalizer and init the same kernel object with train data first and test data later, can i be sure the normalization is done properly? so that test and train data are normalized the same way? | 19:33 |
| flxb | also, does shogun provide methods to center data in feature space? | 19:34 |
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| blackburn | flxb: 1) yes while normalizers are applied on-the-fly 2) PruneVarSubMean should work for that | 20:15 |
| flxb | blackburn: PruneVarSubMean centers the input features, correct? Is there a way to center in kernel feature space? | 20:17 |
| blackburn | flxb: uh you mean center kernel matrix? | 20:18 |
| flxb | blackburn: yes | 20:18 |
| blackburn | flxb: I have to ask you how big is your kernel? | 20:20 |
| flxb | blackburn: 3k x 3k | 20:20 |
| flxb | not very big | 20:20 |
| blackburn | ah nevermind I find it | 20:20 |
| blackburn | ZeroMeanCenterKernelNormalizer | 20:20 |
| blackburn | (I was thinking about suggesting to compute whole matrix and center it) | 20:21 |
| flxb | ahh, there is a normalizer for that? now how can i apply to normalizers? zero mean and avg diag | 20:21 |
| blackburn | flxb: what do you mean? | 20:22 |
| blackburn | you need both? | 20:22 |
| flxb | yes | 20:22 |
| flxb | i want to center the kernel and normalize it | 20:22 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, hmmhh where do you draw the line with the 'external' patch? | 20:23 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: what line? how to choose if lib is external? | 20:23 |
| @sonney2k | for example svmlight is also taken from other source, SVMLin too | 20:23 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: ah I just was lazy to complete that | 20:24 |
| @sonney2k | libsvm is heavily modified, svmlight too | 20:24 |
| blackburn | and wanted to show proof-of-concept | 20:24 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: yes modifications are marked with shogun_* | 20:24 |
| blackburn | flxb: I am afraid this is not really possible now | 20:24 |
| blackburn | however I can suggest a trick for that | 20:25 |
| blackburn | you may attach first normalizer and compute custom kernel with it | 20:25 |
| blackburn | and the attach second to the custom kernel | 20:25 |
| flxb | blackburn: yes this is a good idea | 20:25 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, ok | 20:25 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: do you like it? | 20:25 |
| @sonney2k | I don't really understand what this is for though? | 20:26 |
| @sonney2k | what does it help? | 20:26 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: better structure | 20:26 |
| blackburn | I was (and others were) confused with a lot of .h and .cpp in svm folder | 20:26 |
| blackburn | another issue is cross-dependencies of stuff like ocas | 20:27 |
| blackburn | multiclass ocas was referencing to classifier/svm/libocas | 20:27 |
| flxb | blackburn: now, i would do: k = GaussianKernel(), k.set_normalizer(), k.init(train,train), k_tr = k.get_kernel_matrix(), k.init(train, test), k_te = k.get_kernel_matrix(). Would this work? I'm worried that train and test kernel have a different normalization afterwards... | 20:27 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, yeah but isn't it more natural to include shogun/classifier/svm/Tron.h than sth in lib/external ? | 20:28 |
| @sonney2k | for users of libshogun I mean | 20:28 |
| blackburn | I don't know - they should know what tron is | 20:28 |
| blackburn | flxb: should work I think however that can be different.. sonney2k can you help out there? | 20:29 |
| @sonney2k | flxb, yes that will work init is done based on lhs only if there is some train data specific stuff to do | 20:31 |
| blackburn | wow farbrausch code | 20:31 |
| flxb | sonney2k, blackburn: cool thanks you two! i will try it out | 20:31 |
| blackburn | I always wanted to check this demoscene code | 20:32 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, yeah crazy... and he blogged about some cooperative garbage collector significantly simplifying code w/o speed loss | 20:33 |
| @sonney2k | and no longer incref / decref :) | 20:33 |
| @sonney2k | s/he/chaos/ | 20:33 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: these guys can teach us a lot of things :D | 20:34 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, regarding lib/external I have a different opinion: I think we should put everything in there that is not meant to be seen from the outside | 20:35 |
| @sonney2k | but not the things that make sense to be directly included | 20:35 |
| @sonney2k | for example: if we have a severely modifed CLibSVM class that is meant to be directly used then it should stay in the hierarchy | 20:37 |
| @sonney2k | the SVM_libsvm.{cpp,h} stuff should be in lib/external | 20:38 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: could you please provide example what should stay and what should go to lib/external? | 20:38 |
| @sonney2k | that was the example ^ | 20:39 |
| blackburn | uhoh what's with me | 20:39 |
| blackburn | I can't understand :D | 20:39 |
| @sonney2k | CTron / LibLinear would stay | 20:39 |
| blackburn | why? | 20:39 |
| @sonney2k | libqp would go | 20:40 |
| blackburn | because of serious modifications? | 20:40 |
| @sonney2k | it is CLibLinear now | 20:41 |
| @sonney2k | SVM_linear* would go | 20:41 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: ok is there any library I moved that should go back? | 20:41 |
| @sonney2k | Tron | 20:44 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: because of? | 20:44 |
| wiking | has there been any decision now on where the latent stuff should reside? | 20:45 |
| blackburn | wiking: no but thanks for remind :) | 20:45 |
| wiking | heheh sonney2k read logs ;) | 20:45 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: I mean Tron is not visible from the outside and it is external code, why should it stay here | 20:46 |
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| gsomix | hi there | 20:53 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, it is a CSGObject derived object that can be used from external code | 20:53 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: makes sense then | 20:55 |
| @sonney2k | wiking, ? | 20:55 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: ok another issue - do you agree all the latent stuff | 20:55 |
| blackburn | should go to shogun/latent | 20:55 |
| blackburn | latentfeatures,latentlabels,anything | 20:55 |
| wiking | sonney2k: blackburn is just explaining it... | 20:55 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, why not have it under features and classifier as normal? | 20:56 |
| @sonney2k | I mean we don't have shogun/dot or anything | 20:56 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: I think that domain specific separation is nice | 20:56 |
| @sonney2k | so a few more classes dont' hurt | 20:56 |
| @sonney2k | latent? no? domainadaptation -> yes | 20:57 |
| blackburn | so for transfer learning stuff you agree? | 20:57 |
| @sonney2k | yes - there is a sh*tload of algorithms for that | 20:58 |
| @sonney2k | so it makes sense to have them in separate dir | 20:58 |
| blackburn | shitload? it seems you like transfer learning :D | 20:58 |
| @sonney2k | no | 20:58 |
| @sonney2k | it usually doesn't gain you anything | 20:58 |
| @sonney2k | (like MKL) | 20:58 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: 'like' | 20:59 |
| @sonney2k | there are exceptions to the rule but the costs are exorbitantly massive | 20:59 |
| wiking | sonney2k: great to see that you even had a JMLR article about it ;P | 21:00 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: but chris reported some gain ;) | 21:00 |
| blackburn | with tree stuff | 21:00 |
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| @sonney2k | wiking, 2 even! | 21:01 |
| wiking | and you are 'trashing' it on irc :))) | 21:01 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: that is something funny :) | 21:01 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: I am afraid to ask what do you think about ocas? | 21:01 |
| @sonney2k | wiking, in the first article we just developed a faster algorithm to solve MKL | 21:02 |
| blackburn | and cutting planes in general? | 21:02 |
| @sonney2k | and we used it to understand the classifier | 21:02 |
| @sonney2k | not to improve learning result - which mkl only rarely does | 21:02 |
| @sonney2k | in second article (Lp norm mkl) we managed to improve some state-of-the-art results *slightly* | 21:03 |
| wiking | :)))) | 21:03 |
| wiking | and that's still worth a jmlr article :) | 21:03 |
| wiking | so nice | 21:03 |
| wiking | i really need one journal article soon :) | 21:03 |
| blackburn | and my $#@$@ work doesn't worth :E | 21:04 |
| @sonney2k | the papers have a lot more than that | 21:04 |
| wiking | heheheh yeah i guessed | 21:04 |
| @sonney2k | but that is the essence of MKL | 21:04 |
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| @sonney2k | if you want to use it - try L2-norm MKL | 21:04 |
| wiking | i've treid | 21:04 |
| wiking | tried... was giving really bad results :( | 21:05 |
| @sonney2k | that will always improve or stay the same (at least on data I had) | 21:05 |
| @sonney2k | smells like a bug then | 21:05 |
| @sonney2k | wiking, I guess you used multiclass? no idea if alex binders implementation is well tested | 21:05 |
| wiking | dunno really i've just tried MKL on a dataset... i'm getting 7-8% worse results (in accuracy) than with MKL | 21:06 |
| @sonney2k | we did only binary | 21:06 |
| wiking | i was mening | 21:06 |
| @sonney2k | parse error... | 21:06 |
| wiking | meaning worse results than with simple combined kernel | 21:06 |
| wiking | and GMNP | 21:06 |
| wiking | gmnp with combined kernel is better than mkl | 21:07 |
| wiking | the only thing is that if i want the 'best' result than i have to do a parameter search on the weights for the various kernels | 21:08 |
| @sonney2k | wiking, the (unweighted) combined kernel is *very hard* to beat | 21:15 |
| flxb | why is it called set_full_kernel_matrix_from_full and not simply set_kernel_matrix? does it do something special? | 21:17 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: !! I think we should remove m_q | 21:18 |
| blackburn | totally useless | 21:18 |
| blackburn | flxb: it can be set full from triangle | 21:18 |
| blackburn | and triangle from full | 21:19 |
| blackburn | some cases there | 21:19 |
| flxb | ah | 21:19 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: no I shall convince you to remove q | 21:22 |
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| puffin444 | Hi | 21:24 |
| blackburn | hey | 21:25 |
| puffin444 | How's it going? | 21:25 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, why is it useless? | 21:26 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: it is VERY similar to reducing k | 21:26 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: small q leads to k=1 virtually | 21:27 |
| blackburn | it is not of much interest when you do knn | 21:27 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, why is the buildbot failing? | 21:27 |
| blackburn | I didn't know it is failing :D | 21:27 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, http://shogun-toolbox.org/buildbot/builders/nightly_none/builds/210/steps/compile/logs/stdio | 21:28 |
| @sonney2k | puffin444, strong currents currently :) | 21:28 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, Re q I don't see this as a problem | 21:30 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: hmm I thought I fixed that | 21:30 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: it is useless | 21:30 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, so q>=1 has no effect on solution right? | 21:31 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: q>=1?? | 21:31 |
| @sonney2k | except if distance < 1 | 21:31 |
| blackburn | it will be farest neighbor | 21:31 |
| blackburn | :D | 21:31 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: that is not related to distances | 21:32 |
| blackburn | while it is a multiplier | 21:32 |
| * sonney2k checks the formula | 21:36 | |
| blackburn | sonney2k: with q=1 it +1 to class histogram | 21:36 |
| blackburn | with q=0.5 it +0.5, +0.25, ... to class histogram | 21:37 |
| @sonney2k | ahh so points far away get less influence | 21:37 |
| blackburn | yes sounds consistent but it makes no sense in practice | 21:37 |
| @sonney2k | why not? | 21:37 |
| blackburn | better use parzen windows for that | 21:37 |
| @sonney2k | that is not really a reason | 21:38 |
| blackburn | I don't think this kind of weighting makes sense | 21:38 |
| @sonney2k | I do | 21:39 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: and it makes things harder while covertree do not place vectors in order | 21:39 |
| @sonney2k | yeah but that doesn't really matter | 21:40 |
| @sonney2k | I mean we can just have a speed up for q=1 | 21:40 |
| @sonney2k | and otherwise default to what we had | 21:40 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: ah okay it is hard to convince you :) | 21:40 |
| @sonney2k | which we should keep anyways | 21:40 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, well you implemneted this and it sounds like it makes a lot of sense to me | 21:41 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: I still think it is a stupid heuristics | 21:41 |
| @sonney2k | it protects you a bit from outliers - so I could imagine higher k to be useful in k-NN (I'ver never seen k>7 or so to be useful for q=1) | 21:44 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: with k=10 and q=0.5 farest vector will have weight 1e-5 :) | 21:45 |
| @sonney2k | with C=1e-5 SVM alphas will be mostly 0 | 21:46 |
| blackburn | it is the same like there was no vector at all | 21:46 |
| @sonney2k | obviously 0.5 is an extreme choice already... | 21:47 |
| blackburn | 0.9? 0.99? | 21:47 |
| blackburn | almost no influence at all | 21:47 |
| @sonney2k | 0.9**10 -> 0.34 | 21:48 |
| @sonney2k | anyways | 21:48 |
| @sonney2k | what to do with harshits TSVM? | 21:49 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: ask harshit_ :D | 21:49 |
| @sonney2k | blackburn, what I meant is have you looked at the code? | 21:54 |
| @sonney2k | PhilTillet, I think for nearest centroid it doesn't make sense to have a store_model_features method at all | 21:55 |
| blackburn | sonney2k: no while he said it is incomplete | 21:55 |
| @sonney2k | I mean you have to store the centroids | 21:55 |
| @sonney2k | that is what was meant with store model features | 21:56 |
| PhilTillet | hmm okay, and I have no real choice but to store them during training :p | 21:57 |
| @sonney2k | in the context of e.g. SVM it makes sense to not copy all the SVs (because there can be many and they can be huge) but just their indices | 21:57 |
| PhilTillet | yep | 21:57 |
| PhilTillet | got it | 21:57 |
| @sonney2k | so store_model_features has a meaning :) | 21:57 |
| @sonney2k | PhilTillet, ok so please put the call to kernel init back in and all good :) | 21:57 |
| @sonney2k | PhilTillet, another thing - you assume that you are getting CSimpleFeatures - but you should check (at least add some ASSERT()'s checking for get_feature_class() = CT_SIMPLE()) | 22:01 |
| @sonney2k | PhilTillet, ahh and I am wondering where m_shrinking is used? | 22:02 |
| PhilTillet | Ah, I had a question concerning that :D (not yet implemented) | 22:03 |
| PhilTillet | should the centroids be shrunken after training, or shrunken when classifying? | 22:03 |
| PhilTillet | first option make classification faster but second option avoid re-training when changing m_shrinking | 22:04 |
| PhilTillet | so I don't really know :p | 22:04 |
| @sonney2k | PhilTillet, I guess doing both would resolve the conflict :) | 22:05 |
| @sonney2k | i.e. do it in training | 22:06 |
| @sonney2k | and add some apply_shrinked() | 22:06 |
| @sonney2k | function that would do the shrinking would do | 22:06 |
| PhilTillet | ok:p | 22:10 |
| gsomix | good night, guys | 22:11 |
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| @sonney2k | gsomix, nite | 22:15 |
| puffin444 | Is it night for most people here? | 22:18 |
| wiking | sonney2k blackburn so we have a consensus that the latent stuff will go to the usual places, i.e. latentfeatures and latentlabel class under shogun/features and the latentlinearclassifier under classifier/svm/ ? | 22:21 |
| @sonney2k | wiking, yes | 22:24 |
| wiking | ok cool | 22:24 |
| @sonney2k | puffin444, yes 22hrs here and 24hrs in russia :) | 22:24 |
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| @sonney2k | hi n4nd0 | 22:26 |
| n4nd0 | hey sonney2k | 22:26 |
| n4nd0 | how is it going? | 22:26 |
| n4nd0 | and hi to everyone else too :) | 22:27 |
| puffin444 | Hey | 22:27 |
| @sonney2k | n4nd0, just had a look at your patch - nice job :) | 22:31 |
| @sonney2k | puffin444, can we get some nice shiny graphical example for your GP implementation - I think olivier has sth in his (python based) toolbox :) | 22:31 |
| n4nd0 | sonney2k: thanks! I have your messages, I will start making the modifications and continue with the job this next week | 22:31 |
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| puffin444 | That's something I could try. Is there visualiztion stuff in the Python extensions? | 22:35 |
| @sonney2k | puffin444, not really - just use the excellent matplotlib - it's gallery/examples certain have what you need :) | 22:44 |
| puffin444 | Sounds good. | 22:46 |
| n4nd0 | I think there is a nice plot in scikits for GPs | 22:46 |
| n4nd0 | puffin444: you could use it as inspiration | 22:46 |
| puffin444 | I'll take a look at it. | 22:47 |
| n4nd0 | http://scikit-learn.org/0.10/modules/gaussian_process.html | 22:47 |
| @sonney2k | n4nd0, heh - they certainly have some nice documentation | 22:48 |
| @sonney2k | I don't understand why no one here wants to document things | 22:48 |
| n4nd0 | sonney2k: you mean within the code or in web format? | 22:48 |
| @sonney2k | even though it is much easier just to write a little doxygen code no one writes complex formulas or anything in the class descripton | 22:49 |
| n4nd0 | sonney2k: aham I see | 22:50 |
| n4nd0 | personally I like more something like the one in scikits | 22:50 |
| n4nd0 | I think they do it with sphinx | 22:51 |
| n4nd0 | sonney2k: would you like to see that in shogun? | 22:52 |
| @sonney2k | n4nd0, the problem is more that someone has to write all this stuff | 22:53 |
| @sonney2k | *and* keep it up-to-date | 22:53 |
| n4nd0 | maybe we could start with it step by step | 22:53 |
| harshit_ | sonney2k: hey, TSVM is not complete for now. I think there is some problem with tsvm part of ssl.cpp, which currently I am figuring out. | 22:54 |
| harshit_ | also due to university tests i am not able to give much time so hopefully that would be done by next sunday | 22:54 |
| puffin444 | Yeah it looks pretty, but I don't know how much time a scikit-like graph would take. | 22:56 |
| n4nd0 | puffin444: do you mean to code it? | 22:56 |
| @sonney2k | harshit_, ok np! university tests are certainly more important! | 22:56 |
| puffin444 | Yeah I don't know if I can code this week or not. | 22:56 |
| puffin444 | *code it* | 22:57 |
| n4nd0 | puffin444: aham, all right | 22:57 |
| n4nd0 | puffin444: anyway, in case you didn't see it, here it is the code to do that figure | 22:57 |
| n4nd0 | http://scikit-learn.org/0.10/auto_examples/gaussian_process/plot_gp_regression.html | 22:58 |
| n4nd0 | puffin444: if the method you have implemented in shogun has a similar interface to the one there, you wouldn't need to change much more than the actual part to train the GP | 22:58 |
| n4nd0 | all the plot stuff is there | 22:59 |
| n4nd0 | you can change the colours, the function to predict and you have there a complete new example of your own :) | 22:59 |
| puffin444 | Oh I see. | 23:00 |
| n4nd0 | puffin444: it is just a suggestion of course, I hope you don't mind I said it! | 23:00 |
| puffin444 | No that's fine. Yes this might work. My time is just somewhat limited as I have a major exam next week. | 23:01 |
| -!- blackburn [5bde8018@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.222.128.24] has joined #shogun | 23:11 | |
| blackburn | n4nd0: have you seen sonney2k wants q in knn? | 23:15 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: yeah | 23:15 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: I told you it could be better to wait ;) | 23:16 |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: no way to convince him about it? | 23:16 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: I am still think it should go :D | 23:17 |
| blackburn | sure* | 23:17 |
| blackburn | n4nd0: I don't know probably no way :D | 23:17 |
| n4nd0 | haha ok, let's keep it then | 23:18 |
| blackburn | I am sorry I said it should go | 23:19 |
| -!- vikram360 [~vikram360@117.192.163.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] | 23:19 | |
| n4nd0 | blackburn: no problem man! no need to say sorry ;) | 23:20 |
| @sonney2k | indeed no need to be sorry | 23:28 |
| @sonney2k | nite guyes! | 23:28 |
| puffin444 | bye! | 23:28 |
| n4nd0 | good night | 23:29 |
| puffin444 | I actually have to go too. | 23:32 |
| puffin444 | I'll see what I can do with GP visualization. | 23:32 |
| n4nd0 | cool | 23:34 |
| -!- puffin444 [230bf329@gateway/web/freenode/ip.35.11.243.41] has left #shogun [] | 23:34 | |
| -!- blackburn [5bde8018@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.222.128.24] has quit [Quit: Page closed] | 23:35 | |
| n4nd0 | another that abandons, good night people! | 23:36 |
| -!- n4nd0 [~nando@s83-179-44-135.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] | 23:36 | |
| -!- PhilTillet [~Philippe@npasserelle10.minet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 23:49 | |
| -!- PhilTillet [~Philippe@npasserelle10.minet.net] has joined #shogun | 23:52 | |
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| --- Log closed Mon Apr 16 00:00:19 2012 | ||
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